Let me add…. As the Head of the NATO PFP Exercise Program we often had conferences with up to 20 nations and interpreters for all participants. American slang and buzzwords tripped up many a participant and interpreter. One Army LTC stood up following the Russian General’s brief and said: “Shit hot! Good to go!” After a three second pause the room erupted. I knew immediately what had happened and rushed to the stage to calm the outraged participants. 80% of the interpreters had interpreted: “ This is shit and we are leaving.” Self created call signs and monikers in combat are pure amateur garbage unsuited to military professionals.
Well, as a guy who worked with a lot of different types of units, both US and foreign, and operated through several different language barriers (English, Arabic, Norwegian, Tagalog, French), I have to disagree with the blanket statement: "Self created call signs and monikers in combat are pure amateur garbage unsuited to military professionals". The art and science of operational translation has nothing to do with the topic at hand, outside of where names/terms may be unfit for efficient translation. Unit call signs, monikers, et al, may be entirely appropriate and properly used, provided they are part of an established and understood comm plan. Are you really saying that calling 3/5 "Darkhorse" was pure garbage unsuited to military professionals? Or 2d Tanks (rip) the "Ironhorse" on Reg Tac 1? These were commonly used and understood as part of the CEOI. Likewise, where appropriate, commanders may authorize non standard call signs. Sure, there needs to be some measure of thought. I understand and agree with you from the standpoint of units going 'cowboy rogue' and sounding like clowns, but there is some appropriate context and nuance to this topic. I absolutely do not agree that the companies of 3d LCT using alternate company callsigns is, all by itself, an indicator of the death of military professionalism in that unit.
We like to believe that secure comms allow use to use the same call sign or unit identifier without a sophisticated enemy knowing who is talking to whom. Comm Sec became a lost art with the belief that Comm was secure. The Enigma Machine was cracked and cost the Germans dearly as they thought the odds of breaking the codes were millions and millions to one. Our Chinese and Russian adversaries place huge value in breaking our communications. Being “Kat Killer 6” for more than 24hrs is both lazy and ego driven.
I'm a child of an era and environment where proper secure comms was taken with deadly seriousness. Brevity of transmissions, concise messaging, use of authentication, encryption, proper MIJI procedures...etc. And I agree with you about a tendency towards poor comm procedures ever since freq hopping became a common thing after the advent of Sincgars. I've had to work with the best closed comms and make do with the worst open net comms in very dangerous operational environments, so I think I have an opinion on the matter. But that is not what the article or our discussion is about. We have no insight into the operational comm procedures of the unit in question. For all we know, when it comes to communications procedures and capabilities, they are better at it than you, me, and 3 other Marines combined. I agree with you 97.3% of the time, but this one falls in the 2.7% where we have a different opinion. 3d LCT may have problems, but naming the companies Ares, Banjo, and Chaos is not, by itself, the problem. And for what it's worth, I agree; "Kat Killer 6" is a terrible callsign.
I am in no position to determine the extent of Communications Security in these units. I did note, in the stone ages when I was on active duty, radio chatter and micromanagement went through the roof with secure comms. Since my retirement in 2000 both Russia andChina have advanced significantly and I fear our communications are not as secure as we might believe. Wesley Manning was able to provide classified information to Assange in remarkable amounts. I will defer to people more knowledgable and current than I am. If line Companies want to forgo Alpha, Bravo and Charlie for a unique morale booster so be it. I hear you Loco Chaos. Banjo Six out.
Cont…. This is not to say units do not have identities. Dark Horse, Gunslingers, Professionals etc. Those are moral builders. (I do note that some commanders like to change those to fit their egos). But, using those in tactical communications is simply not wise. Some contend that our secure communications are such that Comm Security is not germane. I tend to give my enemy more credit than less.
Agree!!! This latest "Banjo" and "Chaos" phonetic alphabet confusion is systemic of the underlying problems with the ideology and mentality of the current leadership of our Corps! Their intentional disregard for PROVEN force concepts and force compositions and the air/ground capabilities of our pre-FD2030 MAGTFs is folly and foolish and their arrogant and blatant refusal to heed sound advice and warnings from our past PROVEN leaders is shameful and dangerous! This latest name-game fiasco with 3rd MLR units is merely a surfacing and outrageous rejection of tradition and the past... when the 2nd Mar Div CG has to stand down his division in 2019 for outright disrespect and lack of discipline that he experienced from two BOOT@$$ Marines on base, the Corps indeed has lost its "good order and discipline" and "warrior ethos" that will be difficult if not impossible to restore!
The phonetic alphabet is a NATO standard. It is the one our Allies in the Pacific use as well. In light of communications difficulties between Allies and pronunciation problems clear comms is critical.
As the British ships sends an SOS a German ship answers: what is your emergency? To which the British radio operator replies: We are sinking. The German radio operator replies: Stop sinking and tell me your problem.
It looks like it's legit, but before we get too unglued, looks like they are the 'moto operational' callsigns for the companies. I can see it being used, especially if they tend to be dispersed, it's part of the SOP, and the SOP actually gets used. This isn't the first time. I think there were at least 3.78 'Easy Companies' in the USMC at the time of the Iraq invasion, following the popularity of the Band of Brothers series. It really was not that uncommon for units to have callsigns, usually riffing off the the first letter. This was actually useful where units were talking across tac nets / chat nets, etc, that might have several "X,Y, and Z" companies. At least, as far as we know, '3d Spitoon' is not yet a doctrinal unit name, though we know every 3d Platoon is always the problem children. Now, to address the egregious error in the article. I was a member of "Alpha" Company, never "Alfa" Company. Because Alpha fights first and fights best...watch for the Animal! (yeah yeah, I know, back in the '80s the doctrine was still listing it as 'Alfa'...my old original boot issue Guidebook for Marines has it as such. Us Gen X'rs were able to say Alpha correctly...not as Al-p-ha, but as Al-fa, so we could spell it the correct way....Semper Fi ;)
In the “Old Corps” (before the 38th Commandant) Marine Corps History and Tradition—its very heritage—were important. Marines honored that heritage in word and deed! If the 38th Commandant could eliminate storied regiments such as the 3rd, 4th, and 12th Marines and foist off names like the 3rd, 4th, and 12th Marine Littoral Regiments with a stroke of his pen why should anyone be surprised that Joe Marine decide can Banjo Company is better than Bravo Company. The Wolf can only howl that what we have seen is a mockery of our heritage, likely the product of a limited intellect focused on personal prominence rather than the legacy of the Corps.
This is easy! General Berger checked his overly broad ego at the hatch and instead of Berger Company it’s Banjo company and word has it because he needed play a banjo to get anyone to listen to him, Banjo it is! As to Chaos, that is easy too! Look at the T/O and T/E of the MLR which is still up for grabs and you have chaos. But not to be left at the station the acolytes of FD Happy Talk decided to snuggle up to General Mattis aka call sign CHAOS which apparently came from his time as a regimental commander. Colonel Has Another Outstanding Suggestion. Fitting isn’t it?!?! Patent flattery will get you everywhere in todays Marine Corps! Who in their right mind think it a good idea to diminish the importance of the regimental system. The Brit’s still cling to it, it is the mortar to the bricks of the Corps. This bunch in the puzzle palace are so clueless and as result just struggle forward. Every time we think no it can’t get worse, we’ll we know the outcome, it gets worse, giving leave to the now proved theory that Murphy was indeed an optimist.
Charles, different topic. I am slated to speak at an upcoming reunion of Marine Skyhawk pilots, all retired of course(both airframes and pilots😀). The attendees include A4 drivers from Vietnam to me, one of the last Blacksheep prior to the Harrier transition in 89/90. You have had some good insight into FD, but I tend to delete after reading. Would you have on hand the projected numbers of divested assets, both air and ground? If you have it handy, I’d be greatly appreciative. Many thanks,
Hello Colonel Rotelli, I will get you some divestment numbers and send to your email as provided. Will try to get the info over to you tomorrow if that is suitable. Apologies I missed your reply until now!
Foolishness appears to know no bounds in today's Corps and senior leaders do nothing to reign it in. These leaders have become laughingstock among those who served in the Corps before it went off the tracks.
As an outsider looking in, my perspective might not helpful. Over the years, I've learned that beneficial progress results from changes that make improvements. It is easy to make a change--simply do something differently. A change for its own sake usually is not beneficial, and may be detrimental.
'Inside the Marine Corps' first-ever littoral regiment,' reveals what I'd consider progress in any complex and dangerous undertaking--flexibility in operation, enhancement of critical thinking, taking initiative, for example. Mixed in is change--appearing as change for its own sake.--renaming the standard phonetic alphabet. In the heat of battle, which is most easily said, heard, understood, and remembered? 'Delta' or 'Dumpster.' Apart from tradition. Apart from implied meaning?
Let me add…. As the Head of the NATO PFP Exercise Program we often had conferences with up to 20 nations and interpreters for all participants. American slang and buzzwords tripped up many a participant and interpreter. One Army LTC stood up following the Russian General’s brief and said: “Shit hot! Good to go!” After a three second pause the room erupted. I knew immediately what had happened and rushed to the stage to calm the outraged participants. 80% of the interpreters had interpreted: “ This is shit and we are leaving.” Self created call signs and monikers in combat are pure amateur garbage unsuited to military professionals.
Well, as a guy who worked with a lot of different types of units, both US and foreign, and operated through several different language barriers (English, Arabic, Norwegian, Tagalog, French), I have to disagree with the blanket statement: "Self created call signs and monikers in combat are pure amateur garbage unsuited to military professionals". The art and science of operational translation has nothing to do with the topic at hand, outside of where names/terms may be unfit for efficient translation. Unit call signs, monikers, et al, may be entirely appropriate and properly used, provided they are part of an established and understood comm plan. Are you really saying that calling 3/5 "Darkhorse" was pure garbage unsuited to military professionals? Or 2d Tanks (rip) the "Ironhorse" on Reg Tac 1? These were commonly used and understood as part of the CEOI. Likewise, where appropriate, commanders may authorize non standard call signs. Sure, there needs to be some measure of thought. I understand and agree with you from the standpoint of units going 'cowboy rogue' and sounding like clowns, but there is some appropriate context and nuance to this topic. I absolutely do not agree that the companies of 3d LCT using alternate company callsigns is, all by itself, an indicator of the death of military professionalism in that unit.
We like to believe that secure comms allow use to use the same call sign or unit identifier without a sophisticated enemy knowing who is talking to whom. Comm Sec became a lost art with the belief that Comm was secure. The Enigma Machine was cracked and cost the Germans dearly as they thought the odds of breaking the codes were millions and millions to one. Our Chinese and Russian adversaries place huge value in breaking our communications. Being “Kat Killer 6” for more than 24hrs is both lazy and ego driven.
I'm a child of an era and environment where proper secure comms was taken with deadly seriousness. Brevity of transmissions, concise messaging, use of authentication, encryption, proper MIJI procedures...etc. And I agree with you about a tendency towards poor comm procedures ever since freq hopping became a common thing after the advent of Sincgars. I've had to work with the best closed comms and make do with the worst open net comms in very dangerous operational environments, so I think I have an opinion on the matter. But that is not what the article or our discussion is about. We have no insight into the operational comm procedures of the unit in question. For all we know, when it comes to communications procedures and capabilities, they are better at it than you, me, and 3 other Marines combined. I agree with you 97.3% of the time, but this one falls in the 2.7% where we have a different opinion. 3d LCT may have problems, but naming the companies Ares, Banjo, and Chaos is not, by itself, the problem. And for what it's worth, I agree; "Kat Killer 6" is a terrible callsign.
I am in no position to determine the extent of Communications Security in these units. I did note, in the stone ages when I was on active duty, radio chatter and micromanagement went through the roof with secure comms. Since my retirement in 2000 both Russia andChina have advanced significantly and I fear our communications are not as secure as we might believe. Wesley Manning was able to provide classified information to Assange in remarkable amounts. I will defer to people more knowledgable and current than I am. If line Companies want to forgo Alpha, Bravo and Charlie for a unique morale booster so be it. I hear you Loco Chaos. Banjo Six out.
Cont…. This is not to say units do not have identities. Dark Horse, Gunslingers, Professionals etc. Those are moral builders. (I do note that some commanders like to change those to fit their egos). But, using those in tactical communications is simply not wise. Some contend that our secure communications are such that Comm Security is not germane. I tend to give my enemy more credit than less.
Agree!!! This latest "Banjo" and "Chaos" phonetic alphabet confusion is systemic of the underlying problems with the ideology and mentality of the current leadership of our Corps! Their intentional disregard for PROVEN force concepts and force compositions and the air/ground capabilities of our pre-FD2030 MAGTFs is folly and foolish and their arrogant and blatant refusal to heed sound advice and warnings from our past PROVEN leaders is shameful and dangerous! This latest name-game fiasco with 3rd MLR units is merely a surfacing and outrageous rejection of tradition and the past... when the 2nd Mar Div CG has to stand down his division in 2019 for outright disrespect and lack of discipline that he experienced from two BOOT@$$ Marines on base, the Corps indeed has lost its "good order and discipline" and "warrior ethos" that will be difficult if not impossible to restore!
The phonetic alphabet is a NATO standard. It is the one our Allies in the Pacific use as well. In light of communications difficulties between Allies and pronunciation problems clear comms is critical.
As the British ships sends an SOS a German ship answers: what is your emergency? To which the British radio operator replies: We are sinking. The German radio operator replies: Stop sinking and tell me your problem.
It looks like it's legit, but before we get too unglued, looks like they are the 'moto operational' callsigns for the companies. I can see it being used, especially if they tend to be dispersed, it's part of the SOP, and the SOP actually gets used. This isn't the first time. I think there were at least 3.78 'Easy Companies' in the USMC at the time of the Iraq invasion, following the popularity of the Band of Brothers series. It really was not that uncommon for units to have callsigns, usually riffing off the the first letter. This was actually useful where units were talking across tac nets / chat nets, etc, that might have several "X,Y, and Z" companies. At least, as far as we know, '3d Spitoon' is not yet a doctrinal unit name, though we know every 3d Platoon is always the problem children. Now, to address the egregious error in the article. I was a member of "Alpha" Company, never "Alfa" Company. Because Alpha fights first and fights best...watch for the Animal! (yeah yeah, I know, back in the '80s the doctrine was still listing it as 'Alfa'...my old original boot issue Guidebook for Marines has it as such. Us Gen X'rs were able to say Alpha correctly...not as Al-p-ha, but as Al-fa, so we could spell it the correct way....Semper Fi ;)
In the “Old Corps” (before the 38th Commandant) Marine Corps History and Tradition—its very heritage—were important. Marines honored that heritage in word and deed! If the 38th Commandant could eliminate storied regiments such as the 3rd, 4th, and 12th Marines and foist off names like the 3rd, 4th, and 12th Marine Littoral Regiments with a stroke of his pen why should anyone be surprised that Joe Marine decide can Banjo Company is better than Bravo Company. The Wolf can only howl that what we have seen is a mockery of our heritage, likely the product of a limited intellect focused on personal prominence rather than the legacy of the Corps.
This is easy! General Berger checked his overly broad ego at the hatch and instead of Berger Company it’s Banjo company and word has it because he needed play a banjo to get anyone to listen to him, Banjo it is! As to Chaos, that is easy too! Look at the T/O and T/E of the MLR which is still up for grabs and you have chaos. But not to be left at the station the acolytes of FD Happy Talk decided to snuggle up to General Mattis aka call sign CHAOS which apparently came from his time as a regimental commander. Colonel Has Another Outstanding Suggestion. Fitting isn’t it?!?! Patent flattery will get you everywhere in todays Marine Corps! Who in their right mind think it a good idea to diminish the importance of the regimental system. The Brit’s still cling to it, it is the mortar to the bricks of the Corps. This bunch in the puzzle palace are so clueless and as result just struggle forward. Every time we think no it can’t get worse, we’ll we know the outcome, it gets worse, giving leave to the now proved theory that Murphy was indeed an optimist.
Charles, different topic. I am slated to speak at an upcoming reunion of Marine Skyhawk pilots, all retired of course(both airframes and pilots😀). The attendees include A4 drivers from Vietnam to me, one of the last Blacksheep prior to the Harrier transition in 89/90. You have had some good insight into FD, but I tend to delete after reading. Would you have on hand the projected numbers of divested assets, both air and ground? If you have it handy, I’d be greatly appreciative. Many thanks,
Semper Fi
Digger Rotelli. (Diggerrotelli@sbcglobal.net)
Hello Colonel Rotelli, I will get you some divestment numbers and send to your email as provided. Will try to get the info over to you tomorrow if that is suitable. Apologies I missed your reply until now!
SF,
Charlie
Nope, CP is correct in the analysis. Banjo and Chaos are not a mistake, they are stated as factual names for the companies within the Littoral Bn.
UNFREAKINGBELEIVABLE!🤦🏻♂️🤦🏻♂️🤦🏻♂️
Foolishness appears to know no bounds in today's Corps and senior leaders do nothing to reign it in. These leaders have become laughingstock among those who served in the Corps before it went off the tracks.
As an outsider looking in, my perspective might not helpful. Over the years, I've learned that beneficial progress results from changes that make improvements. It is easy to make a change--simply do something differently. A change for its own sake usually is not beneficial, and may be detrimental.
'Inside the Marine Corps' first-ever littoral regiment,' reveals what I'd consider progress in any complex and dangerous undertaking--flexibility in operation, enhancement of critical thinking, taking initiative, for example. Mixed in is change--appearing as change for its own sake.--renaming the standard phonetic alphabet. In the heat of battle, which is most easily said, heard, understood, and remembered? 'Delta' or 'Dumpster.' Apart from tradition. Apart from implied meaning?