If a civilian (albeit a Marine wife and mother), looking from the outside can see the foolishness of Force Design bullshit, why can't our leadership see it? And do something about it!
Nothing like a good old fashioned ad hominem attack on a mother and wife of Marines, to get the blood flowing! What courage! The simple fact that this fellow leaves out beyond his bland ignorance, is FDFuzzy Wazzy has no logistical support, we have been told by two CMC's now, that the bothersome issue of logistics is being "worked up", 4 years and counting, even Congress is getting curious about the logistics package. As to yesteryear wars, well well like the yesteryear conflicts in Ukraine and Gaza....yesterday? Today? Tomorrow?
No doubt what the acolytes of FD whatever, didn't like about a mother and wife of Marines speaking up, is that she bought simple clarity to the conversation. No acronyms, no bureaucratic triple speak, DC mumbo jumbo. So the question for any of the proponents of FD??? that a wife and mother of Marines essentially asked, is would you volunteer to join an MLR in the first island chain during a hot conflict with say the PLA? Would you send your son, daughter, brother, sister, etc., to that MLR as part of the Stand In Force? DO you know anyone that was on Guadalcanal after the Navy sailed off the horizon? (Yes, I did know someone by the way, a step grandfather, who was a Naval Gunfire Liaison Officer, who became an artillery FO at the "request" of General Vandergrift....)
Ole James just wants to pick a fight, best left ignored. No body likes to fight, but somebody needs to know how. Hmm, we old thinkers need to go back to our sand table and figure how to rebuild the NAGTF on s a shoe string budget. My money is on us.
I've read and studied every unclassified document relating to Force Design 2030 and talked with numerous active duty and recently retired senior Marine officers, so my eyesight is not far off of 20/20 and I can tell your the Mother who wrote the letter is spot on.
Thanks for asking about what I learned in 41 years as a Marine. I know a good bit about yesteryear's battles having had five combat tours in one of which I was severely wounded. Among the many things I learned was the importance of supporting arms, especially artillery and the value of a large caliber direct fire mobile weapon such as a tank. I also found breaching and bridging equipment were necessary to breach and clear minefields and cross gaps and rivers. The Ukrainians and Russians have found the need for these same systems. All of these are things our former CMC gave up in his “divest to invest” approach to combat development
In the 27 years since I left active duty I have continued to learn while participating in many defense related venues. I taught seminars on “Future War” and “Operational Art” at Marine Corps University for 11 years until 2017. I played in a multitude of war games with the Joint community, Army, Navy, and Marine Corps. You may have heard of one of these, Millennium Challenge 2002. I continue to play war games, the latest was a US/China war game with a Taiwan scenario in July. I have also written book chapters and articles on future war. In addition, I consulted with DARPA on advanced command and control systems and with a number of defense companies on various modern weapons systems.
So yes, I have thought about future war, Force Design 2030, and what the mother of a Marine wrote on Compass Points and I found her words to be on the mark, though you may find that surprising. I don’t because what the past and current senior leaders have done to our Corps' structure and operational concepts borders on professional malpractice.
Thanks for asking about what I learned in 41 years as a Marine. I know a good bit about yesteryear's battles having had five combat tours in one of which I was severely wounded. Among the many things I learned was the importance of supporting arms, especially artillery and the value of a large caliber direct fire mobile weapon such as a tank. I also found breaching and bridging equipment were necessary to breach and clear minefields and cross gaps and rivers. The Ukrainians and Russians have found the need for these same systems. All of these are things our former CMC gave up in his “divest to invest” approach to combat development
In the 27 years since I left active duty I have continued to learn while participating in many defense related venues. I taught seminars on “Future War” and “Operational Art” at Marine Corps University for 11 years until 2017. I played in a multitude of war games with the Joint community, Army, Navy, and Marine Corps. You may have heard of one of these, Millennium Challenge 2002. I continue to play war games, the latest was a US/China war game with a Taiwan scenario in July. I have also written book chapters and articles on future war. In addition, I consulted with DARPA on advanced command and control systems and with a number of defense companies on various modern weapons systems.
So yes, I have thought about future war, Force Design 2030, and what the mother of a Marine wrote on Compass Points and I found her words to be on the mark, though you may find that surprising. I don’t because what the past and current senior leaders have done to our Corps' structure and operational concepts borders on professional malpractice.
James, Having followed your comments to this post and replies to others I find, sadly, that you are guilty of what you charge, "to being ignorant, and then charge ahead anyway." PKVR
Whoa, all through this set of posts it is obvious you believe you are the smartest man in the room. Many Marine Vets, such as me, believe this FD2030 is a cluster f##k of the highest order.
Let's see cut the infantry, decimate the artillery, eliminate the tanks, eliminate all bridging capabilities, don't work with the Navy to get the necessary number of amphibious ships, cut back the rotary assets, cut back the fixed wing assets, oh and then tell everyone all is good, we are going to rely on some star wars systems that are not yet built while we park our limited infantry assets on remote islands surrounding the Asian area with no logistical plan to resupply them. Oh and they are going to get the fixed place star wars weapons that everyone knows will be vulnerable to Chinese missile attacks. What could possibly go wrong with that plan??? The mom/wife may not be a military strategist, but it appears neither you or the general staff fit that bill either. SEMPER FI.
What a breath of fresh air along with a heavy dose of truth. My unfurnished truth here is that we have been surrounded by a veil of unaccountability. To add to this, in today's environment it's not chic to admit that you were wrong. The proponents of FD 2030 would rather have all of us go down with the proverbial ship than admit that they were wrong. How sad and vain! Regrettably this irrational attitude will be the demise of our beloved Corps!
I wonder how CMC and our other flag officers have received this letter and how they have responded to it. Whoever set FD 2030 in motion and approved and assisted in what was done, the current senior officers "own it" now and are responsible NOW. The lady and our Corps deserve ACTION NOW.
I have the highest respect for Marine wife and mother., and her vital interest expressed in her letter. I believe she is right to be worried.
What seems to be missing in discussion is the fundamental fallacy at the root of Force Design. I say this even though I have never served in an armed force,, and my knowledge of military strategy is what I gleaned from many long discussions with a US Marine Colonel, Retired. This was for preparing and writing a realistic book for young adult readers; specifically an asymmetric battle--330 US cadets against 10,000 soldiers with 70 tanks--the cadet's mission to save 12,000 civilians caught in the middle.
I quickly realized the best strategy against such a superior force was KEEP MOVING--never stay longer than it took to empty one magazine. If the cadets could be targeted, the battle was lost. In one instance, a single thermobaric rocket brought the cadets close to disaster. It was the rapid repositioning of cadets, spontaneous tactical responses of a superior commander , force motivation, and superior small arms that enabled a fictional victory. Resupplying the cadets was the obvious problem, and only the timely arrival of US Marines saved the day.
Why is this relevant to Force Design? I strongly suspect the same/similar factors would be paramount in a war against China. Logic suggests such a war would be initially waged in the South China Sea. However, therein lies the FALLACY of Force Design--China strikes first, elsewhere. Perhaps an ally (Australia), perhaps Hawaii, perhaps mainland US, or perhaps a joint engagement with Russia somewhere in Asia. Logic, again, says the response must be rapid, powerful, and flexible, concentrated if necessary, or widespread. NOT stationed on islands that are easily bypassed.
A top commodities trader once told me that if you are offered a trade and don’t understand it, than ask to have the trade run by you again; if it still doesn’t make sense it is a BAD trade, so don’t do it! He also said every trade should be simple enough for a 3 year old to understand it. I am giving X to get Y. So, here we are with a mother and wife of Marines; parenthetically, mothers, wives and girlfriends, or flipped on its ear, fathers, husbands and boyfriends are by proxy and close extension “Marines”; and the author of the letter to Commandant Smith is saying I don’t understand the trade you’ve made in the last several years. That should make the alarm bells sound General Quarters at the puzzle palace and on the Hill in DC.
Having worked with the Penobscot Indian Nation near Bangor, Maine, when the politicians were giving them a hard time down in Augusta, the Chiefs would load up several buses and head to the State House steps, and the spectacle would start and ensue. War drums, and ancient garb, signs and vocal protest. Video tape on the local TV station at 6pm! Very quickly the matters would be settled, the political pressure would be just too much for the governor or whomever to withstand and results happened.
While not advocating for the mothers of Marines to chain themselves to the main gate at 8th and I, with placards making the case that Force Design is more than problematic, one does wonder how potent a force a well educated and organized force of American mothers could be in the effort! There have been moments here, when there is a sense that we are all a lot too little, and perhaps a lot too late. When we read this wonderfully composed and heart felt letter, exuding our ethos and esprit de corps, how can we can be morose for even a moment. If this letter is even a notional example of what forces can be marshaled, than the fight is well and truly on.
One can only hope that a much larger promulgation of this letter can be made to happen. They used to say that CEO’s never wanted to hear that Mike Wallace from CBS News, 60 Minutes was in the parking lot. Well I would not want be sitting at my desk in the oldest standing structure in DC, and get this letter, I don’t care how tough and arrogant one is, a letter like this one, ought to tighten up anybody’s groups. Let’s hope so.
Nothing prevents a reader from posting material in support of FD 2030, so it is a puzzling that no one has done so. More common are those who want to attack the critics rather than challenge their message in a discourse. What I do know personally is that critics are not permitted to attend seminars at Marine Corps University and that the Marine Corps Gazette and Naval Institute Proceedings will not publish what critics from Chowder Society II write. Hence they go to other media outlets or here to Compass Points to share their views, which multiple thousands read every day
General, you know we are getting to them when they send out the trolls! We have had some strident critics here from time to time, but one could reason with them to a degree. This James fellow is a troll, the question is “who” sent him. He is not bright enough or engaged enough to know what we are talking and could only display an abject lack of moral courage by attacking a wife and mother of Marines. Don’t know about you, but when we got a congressional inquiry and it was from a concerned mother of a Marine behind it, we jumped to figure it all out and give her a very quick response. We owe it the moms of Marines to answer up truthfully and transparently even if the truth hurts. Which in this case her clarity only supports our contentions. Feels like positive traction despite the very modest and annoying distraction of a troll. But iron sharpens iron, just makes us stronger.
James, My friend, I'm hardly demeaning myself when I write about a process I was responsible to the commandant for overseeing. Clearly, you do not understand the Marine Corps' combat development process for it has nothing to do with Congress or the Secretary of the Navy's office; it is an internal Marine Corps process, which our former commandant circumvented. That is why Force Design 2030 is coming apart as Marine try to implement it. By the way, our former commandant served under seven Secretaries of the Navy and five Secretaries of Defense; no one was minding the store when he foisted FD 2030 off on our Corps. And Congress was hindered during this time by COVID-19 and distracted by an impeachment of the president, so again, no one was watching the store. As to war games, I'm surprised you haven't read about how they were "fixed" to give the former commandant the answers he wanted. Unfortunately, the more you write the more you expose your ignorance of things Marine Corps. Sometimes I wonder if you were even a Marine. Please share with us your credentials. PKVR
James, I commanded infantry units from rifle platoon to the 2nd Marine Division. I also served as an operations officer for a battalion, regiment, division, and MEF. So, I think I have a little bit of operational credibility. But I bring something more to this discussion, I was the CG of the Marine Corps Combat Development Command, thus I know how the Corps is supposed to undertake force design efforts. Out former commandant circumvented that entire process and he and a handful of retired colonels came up with FD 2030. When they wanted to expand on the concept they required others they involved to sign NDAs, so what they were doing would remain behind closed doors. This the reason there are no means to logistically support Stand-in Forces and why HMLA 269 was cut from the force structure only to be stood back up two years latter. The "wheels are coming off" the FD 2030 train.
Your continued defense of the flawed process and resulting concept is making you look foolish. PKVR
Hey James, I tried doing that search without much luck. Other than the main men Dave Berger and Eric Smith was there any other prominent names that worked on Force Design? I was able to google the doubters, but was surprised there wasnt more notoriety for those that actually wrote FD
If a civilian (albeit a Marine wife and mother), looking from the outside can see the foolishness of Force Design bullshit, why can't our leadership see it? And do something about it!
Shame on you. Mothers of our servicemen and women speak from the heart. They should be applauded, not made fun of, for speaking out.
Nothing like a good old fashioned ad hominem attack on a mother and wife of Marines, to get the blood flowing! What courage! The simple fact that this fellow leaves out beyond his bland ignorance, is FDFuzzy Wazzy has no logistical support, we have been told by two CMC's now, that the bothersome issue of logistics is being "worked up", 4 years and counting, even Congress is getting curious about the logistics package. As to yesteryear wars, well well like the yesteryear conflicts in Ukraine and Gaza....yesterday? Today? Tomorrow?
No doubt what the acolytes of FD whatever, didn't like about a mother and wife of Marines speaking up, is that she bought simple clarity to the conversation. No acronyms, no bureaucratic triple speak, DC mumbo jumbo. So the question for any of the proponents of FD??? that a wife and mother of Marines essentially asked, is would you volunteer to join an MLR in the first island chain during a hot conflict with say the PLA? Would you send your son, daughter, brother, sister, etc., to that MLR as part of the Stand In Force? DO you know anyone that was on Guadalcanal after the Navy sailed off the horizon? (Yes, I did know someone by the way, a step grandfather, who was a Naval Gunfire Liaison Officer, who became an artillery FO at the "request" of General Vandergrift....)
Ole James just wants to pick a fight, best left ignored. No body likes to fight, but somebody needs to know how. Hmm, we old thinkers need to go back to our sand table and figure how to rebuild the NAGTF on s a shoe string budget. My money is on us.
IMHO she appears to be more of an expert than some of our current leaders. Just saying.
I've read and studied every unclassified document relating to Force Design 2030 and talked with numerous active duty and recently retired senior Marine officers, so my eyesight is not far off of 20/20 and I can tell your the Mother who wrote the letter is spot on.
Why is it that this articulate, caring woman can see through this nonsense, but the leadership of the Corps falls in line behind it? Semper Fi
Please James, tell us what your know about warfare.
Paul Van Riper
7 hrs ago
James,
Thanks for asking about what I learned in 41 years as a Marine. I know a good bit about yesteryear's battles having had five combat tours in one of which I was severely wounded. Among the many things I learned was the importance of supporting arms, especially artillery and the value of a large caliber direct fire mobile weapon such as a tank. I also found breaching and bridging equipment were necessary to breach and clear minefields and cross gaps and rivers. The Ukrainians and Russians have found the need for these same systems. All of these are things our former CMC gave up in his “divest to invest” approach to combat development
In the 27 years since I left active duty I have continued to learn while participating in many defense related venues. I taught seminars on “Future War” and “Operational Art” at Marine Corps University for 11 years until 2017. I played in a multitude of war games with the Joint community, Army, Navy, and Marine Corps. You may have heard of one of these, Millennium Challenge 2002. I continue to play war games, the latest was a US/China war game with a Taiwan scenario in July. I have also written book chapters and articles on future war. In addition, I consulted with DARPA on advanced command and control systems and with a number of defense companies on various modern weapons systems.
So yes, I have thought about future war, Force Design 2030, and what the mother of a Marine wrote on Compass Points and I found her words to be on the mark, though you may find that surprising. I don’t because what the past and current senior leaders have done to our Corps' structure and operational concepts borders on professional malpractice.
Looking forward to your response.
PKVR
James,
Thanks for asking about what I learned in 41 years as a Marine. I know a good bit about yesteryear's battles having had five combat tours in one of which I was severely wounded. Among the many things I learned was the importance of supporting arms, especially artillery and the value of a large caliber direct fire mobile weapon such as a tank. I also found breaching and bridging equipment were necessary to breach and clear minefields and cross gaps and rivers. The Ukrainians and Russians have found the need for these same systems. All of these are things our former CMC gave up in his “divest to invest” approach to combat development
In the 27 years since I left active duty I have continued to learn while participating in many defense related venues. I taught seminars on “Future War” and “Operational Art” at Marine Corps University for 11 years until 2017. I played in a multitude of war games with the Joint community, Army, Navy, and Marine Corps. You may have heard of one of these, Millennium Challenge 2002. I continue to play war games, the latest was a US/China war game with a Taiwan scenario in July. I have also written book chapters and articles on future war. In addition, I consulted with DARPA on advanced command and control systems and with a number of defense companies on various modern weapons systems.
So yes, I have thought about future war, Force Design 2030, and what the mother of a Marine wrote on Compass Points and I found her words to be on the mark, though you may find that surprising. I don’t because what the past and current senior leaders have done to our Corps' structure and operational concepts borders on professional malpractice.
Looking forward to your response.
PKVR
I really like the "Are you crazy" comment.
James, Having followed your comments to this post and replies to others I find, sadly, that you are guilty of what you charge, "to being ignorant, and then charge ahead anyway." PKVR
Whoa, all through this set of posts it is obvious you believe you are the smartest man in the room. Many Marine Vets, such as me, believe this FD2030 is a cluster f##k of the highest order.
Let's see cut the infantry, decimate the artillery, eliminate the tanks, eliminate all bridging capabilities, don't work with the Navy to get the necessary number of amphibious ships, cut back the rotary assets, cut back the fixed wing assets, oh and then tell everyone all is good, we are going to rely on some star wars systems that are not yet built while we park our limited infantry assets on remote islands surrounding the Asian area with no logistical plan to resupply them. Oh and they are going to get the fixed place star wars weapons that everyone knows will be vulnerable to Chinese missile attacks. What could possibly go wrong with that plan??? The mom/wife may not be a military strategist, but it appears neither you or the general staff fit that bill either. SEMPER FI.
What a breath of fresh air along with a heavy dose of truth. My unfurnished truth here is that we have been surrounded by a veil of unaccountability. To add to this, in today's environment it's not chic to admit that you were wrong. The proponents of FD 2030 would rather have all of us go down with the proverbial ship than admit that they were wrong. How sad and vain! Regrettably this irrational attitude will be the demise of our beloved Corps!
I wonder how CMC and our other flag officers have received this letter and how they have responded to it. Whoever set FD 2030 in motion and approved and assisted in what was done, the current senior officers "own it" now and are responsible NOW. The lady and our Corps deserve ACTION NOW.
I have the highest respect for Marine wife and mother., and her vital interest expressed in her letter. I believe she is right to be worried.
What seems to be missing in discussion is the fundamental fallacy at the root of Force Design. I say this even though I have never served in an armed force,, and my knowledge of military strategy is what I gleaned from many long discussions with a US Marine Colonel, Retired. This was for preparing and writing a realistic book for young adult readers; specifically an asymmetric battle--330 US cadets against 10,000 soldiers with 70 tanks--the cadet's mission to save 12,000 civilians caught in the middle.
I quickly realized the best strategy against such a superior force was KEEP MOVING--never stay longer than it took to empty one magazine. If the cadets could be targeted, the battle was lost. In one instance, a single thermobaric rocket brought the cadets close to disaster. It was the rapid repositioning of cadets, spontaneous tactical responses of a superior commander , force motivation, and superior small arms that enabled a fictional victory. Resupplying the cadets was the obvious problem, and only the timely arrival of US Marines saved the day.
Why is this relevant to Force Design? I strongly suspect the same/similar factors would be paramount in a war against China. Logic suggests such a war would be initially waged in the South China Sea. However, therein lies the FALLACY of Force Design--China strikes first, elsewhere. Perhaps an ally (Australia), perhaps Hawaii, perhaps mainland US, or perhaps a joint engagement with Russia somewhere in Asia. Logic, again, says the response must be rapid, powerful, and flexible, concentrated if necessary, or widespread. NOT stationed on islands that are easily bypassed.
A top commodities trader once told me that if you are offered a trade and don’t understand it, than ask to have the trade run by you again; if it still doesn’t make sense it is a BAD trade, so don’t do it! He also said every trade should be simple enough for a 3 year old to understand it. I am giving X to get Y. So, here we are with a mother and wife of Marines; parenthetically, mothers, wives and girlfriends, or flipped on its ear, fathers, husbands and boyfriends are by proxy and close extension “Marines”; and the author of the letter to Commandant Smith is saying I don’t understand the trade you’ve made in the last several years. That should make the alarm bells sound General Quarters at the puzzle palace and on the Hill in DC.
Having worked with the Penobscot Indian Nation near Bangor, Maine, when the politicians were giving them a hard time down in Augusta, the Chiefs would load up several buses and head to the State House steps, and the spectacle would start and ensue. War drums, and ancient garb, signs and vocal protest. Video tape on the local TV station at 6pm! Very quickly the matters would be settled, the political pressure would be just too much for the governor or whomever to withstand and results happened.
While not advocating for the mothers of Marines to chain themselves to the main gate at 8th and I, with placards making the case that Force Design is more than problematic, one does wonder how potent a force a well educated and organized force of American mothers could be in the effort! There have been moments here, when there is a sense that we are all a lot too little, and perhaps a lot too late. When we read this wonderfully composed and heart felt letter, exuding our ethos and esprit de corps, how can we can be morose for even a moment. If this letter is even a notional example of what forces can be marshaled, than the fight is well and truly on.
One can only hope that a much larger promulgation of this letter can be made to happen. They used to say that CEO’s never wanted to hear that Mike Wallace from CBS News, 60 Minutes was in the parking lot. Well I would not want be sitting at my desk in the oldest standing structure in DC, and get this letter, I don’t care how tough and arrogant one is, a letter like this one, ought to tighten up anybody’s groups. Let’s hope so.
Nothing prevents a reader from posting material in support of FD 2030, so it is a puzzling that no one has done so. More common are those who want to attack the critics rather than challenge their message in a discourse. What I do know personally is that critics are not permitted to attend seminars at Marine Corps University and that the Marine Corps Gazette and Naval Institute Proceedings will not publish what critics from Chowder Society II write. Hence they go to other media outlets or here to Compass Points to share their views, which multiple thousands read every day
General, you know we are getting to them when they send out the trolls! We have had some strident critics here from time to time, but one could reason with them to a degree. This James fellow is a troll, the question is “who” sent him. He is not bright enough or engaged enough to know what we are talking and could only display an abject lack of moral courage by attacking a wife and mother of Marines. Don’t know about you, but when we got a congressional inquiry and it was from a concerned mother of a Marine behind it, we jumped to figure it all out and give her a very quick response. We owe it the moms of Marines to answer up truthfully and transparently even if the truth hurts. Which in this case her clarity only supports our contentions. Feels like positive traction despite the very modest and annoying distraction of a troll. But iron sharpens iron, just makes us stronger.
Who are the designers? Wasn't all of that hidden behind some NDA's?
James, My friend, I'm hardly demeaning myself when I write about a process I was responsible to the commandant for overseeing. Clearly, you do not understand the Marine Corps' combat development process for it has nothing to do with Congress or the Secretary of the Navy's office; it is an internal Marine Corps process, which our former commandant circumvented. That is why Force Design 2030 is coming apart as Marine try to implement it. By the way, our former commandant served under seven Secretaries of the Navy and five Secretaries of Defense; no one was minding the store when he foisted FD 2030 off on our Corps. And Congress was hindered during this time by COVID-19 and distracted by an impeachment of the president, so again, no one was watching the store. As to war games, I'm surprised you haven't read about how they were "fixed" to give the former commandant the answers he wanted. Unfortunately, the more you write the more you expose your ignorance of things Marine Corps. Sometimes I wonder if you were even a Marine. Please share with us your credentials. PKVR
James, I commanded infantry units from rifle platoon to the 2nd Marine Division. I also served as an operations officer for a battalion, regiment, division, and MEF. So, I think I have a little bit of operational credibility. But I bring something more to this discussion, I was the CG of the Marine Corps Combat Development Command, thus I know how the Corps is supposed to undertake force design efforts. Out former commandant circumvented that entire process and he and a handful of retired colonels came up with FD 2030. When they wanted to expand on the concept they required others they involved to sign NDAs, so what they were doing would remain behind closed doors. This the reason there are no means to logistically support Stand-in Forces and why HMLA 269 was cut from the force structure only to be stood back up two years latter. The "wheels are coming off" the FD 2030 train.
Your continued defense of the flawed process and resulting concept is making you look foolish. PKVR
Hey James, I tried doing that search without much luck. Other than the main men Dave Berger and Eric Smith was there any other prominent names that worked on Force Design? I was able to google the doubters, but was surprised there wasnt more notoriety for those that actually wrote FD
You should just shut up and go away before you embarrass yourself any further.
My earlier message was intended for you, for some reason it didn't post in the proper position.