I understand your position. I was on the ground and attached to the wing in Vietnam for a total of seventeen months, so I do understand both sides. I respect both sides equally, but also see the differences. I'm not disputing the honor or courage of the Helo folks, it is well known and documented, I have a son and daughter-in-law who flew Blackhawks in Iraq with a total of 18 months flying combat time. But as an enlisted MARINE, I saw the differences......NL Sheridan SgtMaj Ret
MC been on a downhill slide since we had the airwing CMC. Got max respect for the job the Wing does, but they think differently than the ground element. When a 2Lt comes out of the Basic School, the split begins. relationships with their Marines are different, not bad, just different. I know people will yell and scream over these remarks, but having been on both sides of the fence, I saw the difference. Have been in a combat zone with each element. Absolutely no disrespect intended. Admiration for both, just different
Your quote Randy, that the "MC been on a downhill slide since we had the airwing CMC," is attack on aviation Marines and is an example of one of the widespread biases that corrupts the value of the Marine Corps. First and foremost, Marines who have your denigrating aviation opinion have generally experienced little or no combat. Second, the "downhill slide" you describe includes other Commandants such as Gen. Dunford (first USMC JCS Chairman), Gen. Neller, Gen. Berger, and now Gen Smith.
To continue, the Vietnam Combat Helicopter Pilots Association (U. S. Army of which I am a Life Member as a show of respect) estimates that 10% of the names on the Wall are the names of helicopter aircrews. Since the total helicopter aircrew percent of the total in country population at any one time was less than 1%, the Wall percent has huge significance about the service of this warrior class.
In my mind, the unsung heroes of the Vietnam War, Iraq Wars, and the Afghanistan War were the helicopter crew chiefs. I'll explain. Helicopter crew chiefs are on call 24/7. They take great pride in keeping their helicopter ready for the next mission. This means they work very long hours day in and day out because many of their missions are life saving mission. The work of a Marine helicopter crew chief represents the epitome of the support necessary for ground and infantry Marines.
Of significance is the fact the helicopter crew chief has no influence on the missions assigned to his helicopter. The crew chief also has no influence on the pilots assigned to fly the missions where pilot skills vary. If the assigned mission was an emergency recon retraction, as was frequently the case during the Vietnam War, the crew chief could expect to take on the role of an airborne M-60 machine gun nest. This was also the case in Vietnam. Once in the zone the crew chief engages the enemy forces with the M-60 while infantry Marines scramble aboard the helicopter. The unsung valor of the crew chief and his exemplary performance of duty saves these Marines to fight another day. How well do you think you would hold up under these circumstances Norman.
Then there are all of those aviation awards. Consider some examples. Operation Texas was quite a battle in February 1966. A company of Marine infantry attacked what later proved to be an NVA regiment located on the plain along Highway 1 between Chu Lai and Quang Nghai. To save the Marines engaged with the enemy a large, emergency heliborne assault was ordered. Both MAG-36 and MAG-16 helicopter squadrons were involved for lift of the rescuing battalions.. MAG-12 provided A-4 attack support.
What was initially thought to be NVA 50 caliber enemy anti air fire later proved to be 20 MM anti air fire against the assaulting helicopters. While airframe hits were taken by the assaulting waves, one UH-34D was seen to roll inverted at an estimated 300 feet AGL and crash. The aircrew and embarked Marines perished. As the assaulting helicopters entered the landing Zone, the MAG-12 A-4E attack aircraft were releasing napalm cannisters that wobbled through the air over the assaulting line of helicopters to impact against the NVA 20 MM anti air positions.
Were there any aviation awards that day? The Marine aircrews involved in this action each received 2 mission credits toward the 20 missions required for the Strike Flight Air Medal. It is also important to note that every squadron involved in the Operation Texas battle was led by the squadron commanders in the squadron's lead aircraft. You are correct Norman, they do things differently in the Wing.
That night, a night heliborne assault was planned. The entire runway at Quang Nghai airfield was lined with UH-34D helicopters to support the night lift. The ground combat commander after considerable deliberation decided to cancel the night assault. A contributing reason was concern for the NVA anti air capability. Nevertheless, the battalions in the field were critically short of ammunition. It was decided the last section of 2 UH-34's on the runway would fly an emergency ammunition resupply. Both crew chiefs involved were sergeants and the 4 aviators were second lieutenants.
The secti8on leader crew brief was that all aircraft lights would be out except for the red instrument console lights. No LZ coordinates could be provided. The instructions were to look for a flashing, hand held flash light. The section leader instructed dash-2 to orbit east of highway 1 after take off until the LZ could be found. Both UH-34's were loaded down with ammunition to the point that neither could hover for takeoff even though Quang Nghai is at sea level in night temperature conditions. This meant there had to be a rolling translational lift takeoff that would clear the trees at the departure end of the runway. Both UH-34's launched successfully and proceeded as briefed. A flashing white light was seen out on the western edge of the battlefield. Both aircraft then successfully delivered the emergency ammunition resupply to the infantry out on what was obviously the forward edge of the battle area. Since neither aircraft observed any hostile fire at any time during the emergency ammunition resupply, each Marine aircrew involved received one mission credit toward the next strike flight air medal.
You come by your bias honestly Norman. Senior Marine Corps leaders have the same bias. In fact, an infantry, Marine Lt. Gen. opined in a late 1960 or early 1970 Marine Corps Gazette that it was unfortunate Marine helicopter pilots were not as courageous as their Army warrant counterparts. After Operation Harvest Moon in December 1965, BGen Marion Carl demanded a night, MAG, all officers meeting. Berated our inferior support and told us we were cowards.
My rotors did not stop turning for over 10 hours that day in marginal weather. The ground CG had refused to coordinate with the helicopter groups in advance because helicopters were nothing but flying jeeps in his opinion. Carl asked an army captain if he had anything to say as the meeting ended. The soldier responded, " General, I sat all day with my blades folded because I am not trained to fly in the weather your pilots flew in all day."
I'll close for now Norman. There is much, much more, but I think I have made my point. The Marine Corps is in turmoil today because of the biases of senior Marine leaders that have existed long before Gen. Berger arrived. Apparently, both sides today, active and retired, are in their respective "my way or the highway" mode. This bodes ill for the future marine Corps.
Finally, the soul of the Marine Corps is not the infantry battalion as has been claimed on Compass Points in the past. The soul of the Marine Corps is found in every individual Marine who earned the privileges to wear the Eagle Globe and Anchor.
I send this w sincere respect to all Naval /Marine Aviators and crew. They are fearless capable of incredible feats possessing infinite courage and skill. As the son of a WWII US Naval Aircrewman , who joined at age 17 and after training flew combat missions in a B 24 Liberator over the Pacific, I marvel at the danger our Aircrews overcome daily in war and in peace. There can be no Marine Corps or MAGTF w/o them. “Lord, guard and guide the men who fly
Through the great spaces in the sky.
Be with them always in the air,
In darkening storms or sunlight fair;
Oh, hear us when we lift our prayer,
For those in peril in the air!”
Aloft in solitudes of space,
Uphold them with Thy saving grace.
Thou who supports with tender might
The balanced birds in all their flight.
Lord, if the tempered winds be near,
That, having Thee, they know no fear.” Hand Salute Semper Fidelis ! God Bless all of us and may he assist us in our quest to preserve and improve Our Corps.
I understand your position. I was on the ground and attached to the wing in Vietnam for a total of seventeen months, so I do understand both sides. I respect both sides equally, but also see the differences. I'm not disputing the honor or courage of the Helo folks, it is well known and documented, I have a son and daughter-in-law who flew Blackhawks in Iraq with a total of 18 months flying combat time. But as an enlisted MARINE, I saw the differences......NL Sheridan SgtMaj Ret
I knew we were in for a wild ride when 1st Sgt. Ortiz didn't know what a MAGTF was.
MC been on a downhill slide since we had the airwing CMC. Got max respect for the job the Wing does, but they think differently than the ground element. When a 2Lt comes out of the Basic School, the split begins. relationships with their Marines are different, not bad, just different. I know people will yell and scream over these remarks, but having been on both sides of the fence, I saw the difference. Have been in a combat zone with each element. Absolutely no disrespect intended. Admiration for both, just different
Your quote Randy, that the "MC been on a downhill slide since we had the airwing CMC," is attack on aviation Marines and is an example of one of the widespread biases that corrupts the value of the Marine Corps. First and foremost, Marines who have your denigrating aviation opinion have generally experienced little or no combat. Second, the "downhill slide" you describe includes other Commandants such as Gen. Dunford (first USMC JCS Chairman), Gen. Neller, Gen. Berger, and now Gen Smith.
To continue, the Vietnam Combat Helicopter Pilots Association (U. S. Army of which I am a Life Member as a show of respect) estimates that 10% of the names on the Wall are the names of helicopter aircrews. Since the total helicopter aircrew percent of the total in country population at any one time was less than 1%, the Wall percent has huge significance about the service of this warrior class.
In my mind, the unsung heroes of the Vietnam War, Iraq Wars, and the Afghanistan War were the helicopter crew chiefs. I'll explain. Helicopter crew chiefs are on call 24/7. They take great pride in keeping their helicopter ready for the next mission. This means they work very long hours day in and day out because many of their missions are life saving mission. The work of a Marine helicopter crew chief represents the epitome of the support necessary for ground and infantry Marines.
Of significance is the fact the helicopter crew chief has no influence on the missions assigned to his helicopter. The crew chief also has no influence on the pilots assigned to fly the missions where pilot skills vary. If the assigned mission was an emergency recon retraction, as was frequently the case during the Vietnam War, the crew chief could expect to take on the role of an airborne M-60 machine gun nest. This was also the case in Vietnam. Once in the zone the crew chief engages the enemy forces with the M-60 while infantry Marines scramble aboard the helicopter. The unsung valor of the crew chief and his exemplary performance of duty saves these Marines to fight another day. How well do you think you would hold up under these circumstances Norman.
Then there are all of those aviation awards. Consider some examples. Operation Texas was quite a battle in February 1966. A company of Marine infantry attacked what later proved to be an NVA regiment located on the plain along Highway 1 between Chu Lai and Quang Nghai. To save the Marines engaged with the enemy a large, emergency heliborne assault was ordered. Both MAG-36 and MAG-16 helicopter squadrons were involved for lift of the rescuing battalions.. MAG-12 provided A-4 attack support.
What was initially thought to be NVA 50 caliber enemy anti air fire later proved to be 20 MM anti air fire against the assaulting helicopters. While airframe hits were taken by the assaulting waves, one UH-34D was seen to roll inverted at an estimated 300 feet AGL and crash. The aircrew and embarked Marines perished. As the assaulting helicopters entered the landing Zone, the MAG-12 A-4E attack aircraft were releasing napalm cannisters that wobbled through the air over the assaulting line of helicopters to impact against the NVA 20 MM anti air positions.
Were there any aviation awards that day? The Marine aircrews involved in this action each received 2 mission credits toward the 20 missions required for the Strike Flight Air Medal. It is also important to note that every squadron involved in the Operation Texas battle was led by the squadron commanders in the squadron's lead aircraft. You are correct Norman, they do things differently in the Wing.
That night, a night heliborne assault was planned. The entire runway at Quang Nghai airfield was lined with UH-34D helicopters to support the night lift. The ground combat commander after considerable deliberation decided to cancel the night assault. A contributing reason was concern for the NVA anti air capability. Nevertheless, the battalions in the field were critically short of ammunition. It was decided the last section of 2 UH-34's on the runway would fly an emergency ammunition resupply. Both crew chiefs involved were sergeants and the 4 aviators were second lieutenants.
The secti8on leader crew brief was that all aircraft lights would be out except for the red instrument console lights. No LZ coordinates could be provided. The instructions were to look for a flashing, hand held flash light. The section leader instructed dash-2 to orbit east of highway 1 after take off until the LZ could be found. Both UH-34's were loaded down with ammunition to the point that neither could hover for takeoff even though Quang Nghai is at sea level in night temperature conditions. This meant there had to be a rolling translational lift takeoff that would clear the trees at the departure end of the runway. Both UH-34's launched successfully and proceeded as briefed. A flashing white light was seen out on the western edge of the battlefield. Both aircraft then successfully delivered the emergency ammunition resupply to the infantry out on what was obviously the forward edge of the battle area. Since neither aircraft observed any hostile fire at any time during the emergency ammunition resupply, each Marine aircrew involved received one mission credit toward the next strike flight air medal.
You come by your bias honestly Norman. Senior Marine Corps leaders have the same bias. In fact, an infantry, Marine Lt. Gen. opined in a late 1960 or early 1970 Marine Corps Gazette that it was unfortunate Marine helicopter pilots were not as courageous as their Army warrant counterparts. After Operation Harvest Moon in December 1965, BGen Marion Carl demanded a night, MAG, all officers meeting. Berated our inferior support and told us we were cowards.
My rotors did not stop turning for over 10 hours that day in marginal weather. The ground CG had refused to coordinate with the helicopter groups in advance because helicopters were nothing but flying jeeps in his opinion. Carl asked an army captain if he had anything to say as the meeting ended. The soldier responded, " General, I sat all day with my blades folded because I am not trained to fly in the weather your pilots flew in all day."
I'll close for now Norman. There is much, much more, but I think I have made my point. The Marine Corps is in turmoil today because of the biases of senior Marine leaders that have existed long before Gen. Berger arrived. Apparently, both sides today, active and retired, are in their respective "my way or the highway" mode. This bodes ill for the future marine Corps.
Finally, the soul of the Marine Corps is not the infantry battalion as has been claimed on Compass Points in the past. The soul of the Marine Corps is found in every individual Marine who earned the privileges to wear the Eagle Globe and Anchor.
Semper Fidelis, Robert Whitener Col. USMC (Ret)
I send this w sincere respect to all Naval /Marine Aviators and crew. They are fearless capable of incredible feats possessing infinite courage and skill. As the son of a WWII US Naval Aircrewman , who joined at age 17 and after training flew combat missions in a B 24 Liberator over the Pacific, I marvel at the danger our Aircrews overcome daily in war and in peace. There can be no Marine Corps or MAGTF w/o them. “Lord, guard and guide the men who fly
Through the great spaces in the sky.
Be with them always in the air,
In darkening storms or sunlight fair;
Oh, hear us when we lift our prayer,
For those in peril in the air!”
Aloft in solitudes of space,
Uphold them with Thy saving grace.
Thou who supports with tender might
The balanced birds in all their flight.
Lord, if the tempered winds be near,
That, having Thee, they know no fear.” Hand Salute Semper Fidelis ! God Bless all of us and may he assist us in our quest to preserve and improve Our Corps.
One can only hope that dream (more like a nightmare) never happens.
Amen!
Macabre Marine humor! There is always hope! Semper Fidelis! God Bless Chesty Puller!